Babies die and the Elite plunder

Today’s post is not a nice one, a child died this week in what is arguably the most resource rich country in South East Asia. Yet this nation is more concerned about who raised what flag or what people pray for or what they do in their bedrooms. Everyone should feel ashamed such self serving, callous creatures are walking about in our community.

The Jakarta Post reported yesterday

An 8-month-old infant died over the weekend after she had been denied admittance to two hospitals and “was treated late” in the third due to her parents’ financial condition.” They required an advance payment of Rp 500,000 [US$56.5] for administrative costs and set a rate of Rp 500,000 per day for inpatient care and doctors’ fees.

I did not admit [my daughter] because I could not afford it,” he said on Monday. Martin and his wife then took Nisza to the Handayani Hospital but it rejected them and referred them to RS MAL, arguing that it did not have adequate medical equipment to treat Nisza. Arriving close to 3 p.m. at MAL hospital, he said, they were again asked to pay a down payment of Rp 500,000 to have Nisza treated. Martin only had Rp 250,000. RS MAL director Zakaria Ansyori said the hospital did require inpatient patients to pay a down payment. “We admitted her anyway even though the family paid less than required. As is the norm, we gave her medicine according to the instruction of our pediatrician,” Zakaria said.

Full Story here:

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011/10/25/ill-infant-dies-after-hospitals-reject-her.html

This story is sadly not unusual in Indonesia, hospitals routinely demand payment in advance and refuse treatment to the those who cannot afford it and actually have the nerve (and the power) to sue those who dare question their methods.

The question is why are those responsible for not treating and turning the infant’s parents away not in detention right now?

Why does the Health Minister still have job? Although the previous Health Minister had no trouble finding the money to get hospital treatment overseas, does anyone know who paid for that).

In a country where the rich and politically connected openly flaunt their wealth in the most obscene and tasteless manner, stories like this border are just plain obscene. One has to wonder if these elitist parasites even notice those whom they are supposed to protect and serve. One assumes not or they would take far more note of current events and the rising tides of resentment across the world.

Next time you are out and about take note of the conditions of the hospitals and schools in your area and when one of the parasites comes pleading for your vote to enrich him/herself. Throw it’s offered gratuity on the ground but not before you have spat on it.

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About Oigal

I have kicked a bag of spuds over the River Murray. I was the bloke who turned their heads for home. They called me Co when I worked with Mr Cobb and it was my house that was just a bit further on from the Black Stump. I was there when the Breaker called it rule 303 and once wrote a letter with a thumbnail dipped in tar.
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79 Responses to Babies die and the Elite plunder

  1. avatar Chris says:

    Here is today’s update. Note how government officials don’t lay the blame with the 2 hospitals, blaming everyone else except the hospitals.

    Governor blames info lapse in death of baby girl

    The West Java governor said that a lack of information about the state-run health insurance program for poor people led to the tragic death of an 8-month-old girl after two hospitals refused to admit her because her parents could not afford their services.

    Nizsa Ismail, who lived with her parents on Jl. Pasantren in Cimahi, West Java, died in the Intensive Care Unit of Mitra Anugerah Lestari Hospital in Cibaligo, Cimahi, on Oct. 22, having being sick with a high fever since Oct. 20.

    Nizsa’s parents — Martin Ismail, 27, and Susan Kania, 29 — were turned down by two hospitals because they could not afford to pay the down payment of Rp 500,000 (US$56.5) that the hospitals requested to admit their child.

    The third hospital they went to admitted their child, but by then her situation was too serious and she died there.

    They said the hospitals had neglected the needs of their child.

    Governor Ahmad Heryawan said that he expected the media to be objective in covering the story so that the public could understand the real situation.

    “The media should make sure whether the parents were just expressing their emotions, or whether there was actually a problem,” he told reporters after opening the 2011 West Java International Expo at Grand Royal Panghegar Hotel in Bandung on Tuesday.

    Cimahi Health Office secretary Huzen Rachmadi said a preliminary investigation that he had ordered, concluded on Monday that the two hospitals had acted appropriately in dealing with the patient.

    “We have assigned a team and the hospital handled the case according to the procedures,” Huzen said.

    Huzen instead blamed the patient’s parents for not applying for Community Health Insurance (Jamkesmas) or Provincial Health Insurance (Jamkesda) for low-income families provided by the government.

    “As an underprivileged family, they should have been signed up with Jamkesmas or Jamkesda so that they could easily get treatment at state-run hospitals for free,” Huzen said.

    He added that Martin should have gone to Cibabat Regional Hospital which specialized in treating patients from Cimahi who were covered by Jamkesmas insurance.

    Martin said he had never been approached by the neighborhood unit chief about the government’s free health insurance.

    “No one offered me that, and I wasn’t aware of it,” Martin said.

    He said he had not taken his daughter to the state-run Cibabat Hospital because his neighbors had told him that treatment there was expensive.

    The Mitra Anugerah Lestari hospital management allowed Martin to bring home his daughter’s body after he had promised to settle the outstanding medical fees, which amounted to Rp 1.3 million, within 24 hours.

    West Java Health Office head Alma Luciyati said that the problem was down to miscommunication because the doctors at Mitra Anugerah Lestari Hospital had failed to explain the medical procedures in detail, so the patient’s parents felt their daughter had been neglected.

    • avatar Oigal says:

      That is grotesque!

      “The media should make sure whether the parents were just expressing their emotions, or whether there was actually a problem,”

      Let’s see, the parents went to two hospitals with an obviously very sick child, they were turned away for the sake of $56 and the baby died. Is the problem too hard for this excuse of man to comprehend! When was the last time he or his had to deal with the red tape that is supposed to cater to the poor…(no we ain’t talking the travel agent to a Singapore hospital)

      and hows this

      ‘The Mitra Anugerah Lestari hospital management allowed Martin to bring home his daughter’s body after he had promised to settle the outstanding medical fees, which amounted to Rp 1.3 million, within 24 hours.”

      How very damn noble of them!

      West Java Health Office head Alma Luciyati said that the problem was down to miscommunication because the doctors at Mitra Anugerah Lestari Hospital had failed to explain the medical procedures in detail, so the patient’s parents felt their daughter had been neglected.

      Hey Alma… “felt their daughter had been neglected” The baby died due to lack of care you moron, why do you still have a job?

  2. avatar timdog says:

    Hey, but at least Indonesia is free from marxist NHS death panels and communist Obamacare!
    Cheer up everyone, this is the glorious free world we live in here, and everyone knows that universal healthcare, funded through tax and free at the point of delivery is pure evil!

  3. avatar bonni says:

    This is just soo sadddd… Poor babies… :’( :’( :’(

  4. avatar stevo says:

    Obamacare and the Indonesian health system have one thing in common timdog, they both dont work. I give him credit for trying however.

    That aside, as far as I am concerned, health care is so fundamental, that without a certain standard, we have to take a long hard look ourselves and the society we have built. This is one issue where I am a bit of a socialist. Indonesia is not rich, but can do much better than this. I have a big problem with turning away the sick and dying. The problem is trying to instill a social conscience in those who only act in self interest. Until that problem is addressed, I see little chance of things improving for the poor. Some people just dont care.

    • avatar Oigal says:

      A couple of the usual howlers from Stevie in there.
      Obamacare and the Indonesian health system have one thing in common timdog, they both dont work.

      Besides the fact, that “Obamacare” has not been implemented across the states yet make the statement somewhat premature. Curiously one of the Republican front runners is having serious issues as the health system in his own state is almost a mirror image of the new health proposal and works very well. The biggest issue in the US debate is mandatory health insurance, yet Australia has had it for years and it works pretty darn well (remember medicare Stevo). The vast majority of European nations have variations of mandatory health insurance and again seems to most to be a fairly logical step.

      Secondly, its a furphy that Indonesia is not rich, it is obscenely rich. It just that as it the days of the Robber Barons of the West, that wealth is plundered, stolen and raped before the very eyes of dispossessed majority.

    • avatar Lairedion says:

      Why is a mandatory health care system socialist? Utter nonsense from right-wing naysayers.

      A good functioning system is a testament for empathy and concern for fellow humans otherwise being unable to pay medical bills themselves plus it is beneficial for the health and welfare of society as a whole. I don’t see the point putting a political label on it.

  5. avatar jack says:

    Medicare is not available to Oigal. That’s how good it is

    • avatar Oigal says:

      I have no idea what you are talking about Jack. If I was in Australia of course Medicare is available to me, I still have my card around someplace.

  6. avatar diego says:

    stupid west java. that for being arab ass lickers, you have a sick sick society.

  7. avatar jack says:

    you are not eligible to have a card. Did you know that?

    • avatar Oigal says:

      Why would that be Jack? You are of course correct that as a “non-resident” you would have to re-apply upon return to Australia but essentially medicare is for people who reside in Australia. In short

      * hold Australian citizenship
      * have been issued with a permanent visa
      * hold New Zealand citizenship

      Medicare is available.

      The interesting debate is when a person is resident or non resident but hardly material to the overall concept or success of medicare in providing medical care to those who can least afford it.

  8. avatar timdog says:

    A long time ago, I, a scruffy dirty young punk rocker, lived for a while in a scuzzy flat in Dee-Why, dug a few holes and did a few kitchen shifts here and there. I ain’t no Australian, but I had a medicare card, and when I later bust my shoulder surfing in WA they treated me for free.

    Lairedion – “why does a good functioning healthcare system have to be socialist?” Whatever the answer to that question, the sad fact of the matter is that many people with right-wing political views (by which I mean views about taxation, the role of the state, etc, rather than essentially apolitical knee-jerking xenophobia), seem to believe that public health provision is socialist.

    See the historical discourse created by the Tories in the UK in which the NHS is a terrible institution of sadistic nurses, superbugs and death, and see the sustained and appalling attack that the service is currently under, its entire structures being dismantled and replaced with quasi-commercial aperatus, so they can simply pull out the public funding in a future parliament.
    See also the shrieking hysteria which surrounded even the suggestion of “obamacare”…

    Any country which doesn’t regard providing genuinely universal healthcare, free at point of delivery, has something horribly wrong with it; anyone who doesn’t think that even pseudo-commercial structures should be kept as far away as possible from such a service is either wickedly selfish and greedy or spectacularly stupid; and anyone who, as a citizen and a taxpayer, doesn’t want to play their part in both using and supporting such a system ought to go and move to Somalia.

    And anyone who would on the one hand shriek about marxist obamacare and the communist NHS on the one hand, but who would rail against this horrible story described in oigal’s post on the other needs to consider the sheer untenability of their idiotic position.

    The issue of healthcare provision, thanks to personal experience, is the one point of political debate where I don’t bother with even a modicum of civility. Quite simply, their are only two choices – the ethical one, or the rancidly wicked one.
    Nothing more to it than that.

  9. avatar matahari says:

    I actully feel like writing a long furious comment for this, yet somehow it would be useless… I just want to say where were the doctors at the both hospital? Aren’t they supposed to be the so-called well-educated ones here? They have to know the patient referral system, maybe better than the governor. Owh I forgot! The doctors were so busy with other patient who actually paid cause hell yea! Why should I think for others I have studied hard and paid too much to become a doctor! That’s how Indonesia grows doctors nowadays.

    • avatar Oigal says:

      Bit the same Mata, they and their apologists are the scum of the earth

    • avatar ET says:

      @ Matahari

      You are right. What this post is about is not a problem of universal healthcare but one of universal human values. In civilized countries not helping a dying or injured person is a crime. In Indonesia apparently not.

      • avatar Oigal says:

        Sadly, what I find most appalling is not the callous, unthinking, cruel and moronic responses attitudes from officialdom as I come to expect little else. Essentially offal rises to the top it seems.

        What I find appalling is the once again collective shrug of the shoulders by the media and the general populace. In most countries several people would have lost their jobs by now and very possibly a change of government.

        Is it any wonder that Indonesia has such vipers as political leaders, perhaps it’s true a country gets the leaders it deserves.

        Mind you..raise the wrong flag, take a picture in your bedroom, pray to the wrong god..look out..we will jail you for years or hack you to bits..

      • avatar timdog says:

        But ET, it IS about universal healthcare – in a country where there IS universal healthcare, delivered free at point of delivery with no questions asked, this incident SIMPLY WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED.

        A set-up where, if you happen to be dirt poor and don’t have health insurance you have to rely on human values over-riding the systems and structures of a healthcare apparatus run AS A BUSINESS is f@$*$^d.

        And let’s just follow it through a minute – let’s imagine a system of private healthcare, paid for by patients either up front or through insurance (and let’s forget for a moment the natural inclination of such hospitals to then pursue PROFIT). Now, in any country there will always be people who fall through the economic cracks, so what happens when they rock up at the hospital with a sick baby? A minor fracture? Cancer? We have to rely on universal human values to make an exception?

        First up, there’s the very real question of who is actually going to pay for their care in such cases?
        And then, are you naive enough to think that a certain kind of newspaper, and a certain kind of down-the-pub ranter and “concerned healthcare insurance payer” would soon start spitting vitriol about “spongers”.

        This IS about the issue of universal healthcare provision. Healthcare provided on a business model is wicked, and this kind of incident is the natural expression of that wickedness.

        • avatar timdog says:

          … that’ll be “wouldn’t soon start spitting vitriol”…

        • avatar Lairedion says:

          I have to agree wit timdog here. Every sane person will concur helping a fellow human in need is a noble and just cause but as a society we cannot rely on that. That’s why a mandatory heath care system is a good thing so we can cancel out that risk of egocentrism and egoism when money becomes an issue.

        • avatar ET says:

          My comment above wasn’t directed against universal healthcare. In fact I am a supporter of universal healthcare (how’s that for a rightie?) in as far as the state’s budget allows for it and eventually backed up by private insurance for those who want extra care like private hospital rooms. Of course on condition that the necessary mechanisms are built in to deter spongers.
          But knowing Indonesia I have serious doubts that, even if a system of universal healthcare was in place beyond the level of puskesmas, cases like what is described in this thread wouldn’t have happened depending on the goodwill – and open pockets of course – of those who are in charge of admitting and administering. If refusing to take care of a dying child is considered normal without provoking outrage, no amount of universal healthcare will solve the mental problems of those whose job is supposed to assist people in distress.

          Healthcare provided on a business model is wicked, and this kind of incident is the natural expression of that wickedness.

          A gratuitous statement. Business models – at least in our wicked capitalist West – are based on competitiveness. Those that don’t live up to the standards of their trade will be eliminated, either by the forces of the market or by governmental regulatory measures. In the case of healthcare private enterprises are able to provide an effective backup against bureaucracy and political meddling/incompetence. And at least they let people the choice of whom they trust their health and bodies to.

          • avatar timdog says:

            Of course on condition that the necessary mechanisms are built in to deter spongers.

            Ah, and there it is!
            Who exactly are these “spongers” and how do we deter them? On the dole and you get cancer? Sorry but you’re f*&^d? How about you’re five years old with cancer, but your parents happen to be chavvy dole “spongers”?

            An ethical healthcare system needs to be genuinely universal. Simple as that.

            A gratuitous statement. Business models – at least in our wicked capitalist West – are based on competitiveness. Those that don’t live up to the standards of their trade will be eliminated, either by the forces of the market or by governmental regulatory measures. In the case of healthcare private enterprises are able to provide an effective backup against bureaucracy and political meddling/incompetence. And at least they let people the choice of whom they trust their health and bodies to.

            And there’s the great lie of the healthcare debate (actually, it’s just a variation of the great lie behind much of right wing thinking, but it’s probably the most amoral and pernicious manifestation of it).

            “Forces of the market” and “competitiveness” are simply not compatible with ethical provision of healthcare.

            There’s this idea that to be “efficient” you need to run your hospitals on a business model. Nonsense: to be efficient you need to run your hospitals on budget.
            But budgets are not the exclusive prerogative of businesses, and what’s more, businesses bring something else, something thoroughly unpalatable, to the plate.
            Businesses do not run on a simple budget; they are run on a profit model. Bringing profit into healthcare provision is immediately to enter a murky ethical zone. Profit is based on maximizing takings and minimizing outgoings (minimizing outgoings, not simply to meet a fixed budget, but to increase profit).
            If you can’t see the glaring untenability of bring that into an ethical healthcare system, then there must be something wrong with you…

            Here’s an example:

            I remember when I was a kid my neighbour had his tonsils out. He went into the local NHS hospital in the morning, came home that evening, ate some jelly and icecream and was back at school on Monday.

            Last year a friend in Indonesia had her tonsils out. There were multiple preliminary visits to the hospital. She was in hospital for two days before they operated undergoing multiple blood tests and several “preparatory” courses of antibiotics; then came the operation followed by several more days of tests, drugs and control before she finally got to go home. They had kept her in for a week, and followed this up with weekly “control” meetings in which a doctor peered in her mouth and prescribed yet more drugs.
            The inpatient treatment alone ran to Rp20 million, which went over the Rp15 million monthly limit on her employer-provided health insurance (and this is someone with a decent job).

            That’s healthcare run according to your glorious “competitiveness” and “forces of the market”, and it stinks.
            Imagine if she’d got cancer!

            The moment you bring even pseudo-profit into healthcare provision you create something very black indeed.

            Another example – in the UK prescriptions are subsidised – whether it’s 50p’s worth of aspirin or 200-quid of antibiotics, the cost is 7.50. GP’s records get audited to check they’re not over-perscribing, so they don’t give you things you don’t need.
            When was the last time you went to an Indonesian doctor, with, say, a minor cough? Remember the scrip for about half-a-dozen different entirely superfluous medicines you came away with?

            Competitiveness! Effective backup! Forces of the market!

            Bringing business practices, profit motives and so on into helathcare provision is simply incompatible with ethics. Even when a mass of checks and restrictions are put in place to stop the kind of thing that Oigal’s story describes, you are simply chaining down a raging and monumentally unethical beast. Why would you even want to bring those wicked – and I mean wicked, without hyperbole – drivers into it in the first place?

  10. avatar deta says:

    Huzen instead blamed the patient’s parents for not applying for Community Health Insurance (Jamkesmas) or Provincial Health Insurance (Jamkesda) for low-income families provided by the government.

    What a kind gesture. Once I came to a state owned hospital in Bandung in the morning and the queue of Jamkesmas holders had reached more than 100 patients. At 8 am in the morning. Now we can imagine what quality of treatment these less fortunate patients can expect from the hospital.

    • avatar bonni says:

      There is a big-old-famous hospital in jakarta where jamkesmas holders have to ngantri all the time, and sometimes it takes 3 months or even more to get their turn…

  11. avatar stevo says:

    A couple of the usual howlers from Stevie in there.

    So what was the “howler” Oigal, was it my belief in the State providing medical care for all, or was it my belief in a an effective medical system.?

    Given the context and point of my post, I am interested to hear how your views differ.

    Indonesia is not generally considered a rich country. There is a huge disparity in the distribution of wealth, which is why I said it can do better and mentioned the self serving nature of those in power. Medical care is just one example of this.

  12. avatar matahari says:

    Then may I say that I am with both of you, Timdog and ET… It is a matter of a (universal) health care system absence and ethical human conscience when one chooses to be a professional in medicine. A good health care system can indeed hinder all the profit oriented activities. Although, it needs a bunch of people who have enough with their lives and are willing to put aside their loaves and fishes to develop such system.
    I am just going to take several steps back, and looking at my country’s education system. Not like in the era of hipocrates, med-schools are one of the most expensive schools in any country. They, the med-students, don’t want to be hipocrates, they want to have a steady job with good salary afterwards, not for helping people (oh my God that is a real utopia) and also not even for the science/knowledge. Finding a handfull of people among them to work hand in hand with the gov for a good health care system (my gov to be exact, which we all have understand) will be finding a needle in a pile of needles.
    I honestly can not think of something as a good start to disentangle this whole mess.

    • avatar Oigal says:

      Well, I would disagree Matahari. A good start would be the dismissal and public shaming of that worthless Health Minister. The CEO’s and those on the front counter who turned the family away should be charged for manslaughter. Finally the media and the educated public should for once show a modicum of ethical values and relentlessly hound that despicable, moronic Governor and his talking heads from office. A good place to start would be at that EXPO the flea is opening, in any kind of values based society that horrible creature should be pelted with rotten fruit until it flees in shame.

      • avatar matahari says:

        Oh Oigal, I promise you I would want to do that so much. I think I have experienced so many cases of bringing up media, bringing up war against the health minister, hospital, bringing up courts etc etc… do they do any good Oigal? do they really work or same old same old?
        it doesn’t mean we should stop exposing those, there will be coins for emergency cases around indonesia or something like that… im all for it, we can fight together.
        Although, I think and correct me if I’m wrong it doesn’t seem to touch the very basic of the problem. Human is humane to be greed including the hospital’s owners. Ethics is not something you grow and cultivate over night. As long as the system doesn’t give boundaries to your greed this will happen. As long as medical education system is being messed up with profit oriented people, there will be no ethics at all. But who will build that system? the media? the people? no, it belongs to a bunch of privileged people who make regulations. There is where all my hopes are withered, Oigal. I am not saying that people power can not remove them … people power can even overthrow a kingdom, but then what’s next?

        • avatar Oigal says:

          I agree with M/H, nothing will change. This incident created less that two days of average coverage. The collective apathetic shrug wins again.

  13. avatar ET says:

    @ timdog

    re. your rant of today

    It’s clear that your lines of thought and mine are divided by a raging river. But if you become devoid of even the most basic common sense I see no use in further debate. If in your world ‘business’ equals ‘evil’ I suggest you come down from the clouds and take up a course in accountancy?

    Btw, who pays for your ‘budget‘?

    • avatar timdog says:

      No ET, business per se is not evil; where did I say that?

      But running healthcare on a business model instantly creates an untenable ethical tension.

      For over half a century the UK has had an magnificently admirable universal healthcare system run without recourse to “business models”. It only started to run into difficulties in the last few decades as it came under sustained ideological attack, propoganda, a barrage of lies about “choice” (the other great right-wing chimera) and slashed budgets from right-wing and semi-rightwing (read Blairite) governments.

      How has its budget been provided all this while? Through tax, ET, through tax. Or are you one of those people who thinks tax itself is evil, and “I’ve got enough money to school my kids and pay for my healthcare and put my granny in care, and f*$k the people who haven’t, and plus, maybe I can make a healthy profit out of running some service that used to be provided free by the state”?

      I’m not a communist ET; I’m not even, believe it or not, a hard-left socialist, and I’m perfectly prepared to hear and accept arguments for privatisation of many services, including transport, energy provision, infrastructure management etc…

      However, there are two things that are sacred: public healthcare and education. Bringing business models and profit motives into those two things is unethical right from the start (before you consider additional issues like the innate entrenchment of privalege created by private education provision).

      This case, discussed in this thread, is the perfect illustration. You can choose to make it all about the “savagery” of Indonesia, with wailing an gnashing of teeth about what a dreadful country this is (hell, why not try to bring Islam into it while you’re at it?).
      But the fact of the matter is, this is the entirely natural and inevitable manifestation of healthcare provided on a business model with a profit motive.

      It would never have happened in the UK, and that’s NOT because Indonesians are uncaring savages, and Britishers are tender humanitarians; it’s because Britain has comprehensive universal no-questions-asked healthcare, free at point of delivery, funded through taxation.

  14. avatar stevo says:

    ET, I think this is the sort of health system that Timdog wants. It certainly is comprehensive and comes from his homeland.

    The family of a disabled Ugandan drug lord who had his carer killed because they feared he knew too much are threatening to sue the health service after the gangster died.
    Clifford Denty was given round-the clock treatment on the NHS after he was left paralysed in a nightclub shooting.
    No expense was spared for the Ugandan immigrant. Thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money was spent converting his council property and he was provided with a team of carers and given a converted Mercedes under a Government scheme.
    But, although he was confined to a wheelchair, Denty continued his drug dealing activities to fund a luxurious lifestyle.
    But when his main carer, Curtis Smith, realised the extent of his illicit activities, Denty and his brother Andrew decided he had to be silenced.
    Andrew Denty shot Mr Smith repeatedly in the head with machine gun.

    • avatar Lairedion says:

      Yeah, just pick out some extreme case, present this as common or standard practice to make another person’s position look extreme as well and deliberately ignore what happens day in day out with people on limited financial resources being helped with free medical care.

      Is timdog now also a book burner and a mass murderer like me, stevo?

  15. avatar timdog says:

    You know what Stevo, yes, that’s exactly the kind of healthcare system I want – one where, if you are eligible as a UK resident (which this guy was), you are given care.

    That’s the ONLY way to run an ethical healthcare system. What’s your alternative? A case by case assesment? Let’s check your criminal record before we admit you? Looks like you might have got yourself into this trouble? Then we’ll leave you to bleed to death on the pavement…
    A few minor transgressions in your youth? Well, we’ll patch you up, but you’re definitely not worth as much as a human being as that posh kid working in the city who never put a foot wrong (or who never appeared before a court anyway).
    Or how about you’re just a bit poor, and probably haven’t paid in tax in the last few years enough to fund a tonsils operation, let alone three months of chemotherapy? Sorry buddy, that perfectly curable tumor is going to kill you…

    Or is there something specific about this case? is it because… is it… if he was a born-and-bred cockney rum ‘un, would you and the daily mail have got so exercised?

    • avatar Oigal says:

      Of course, you count on Stevo to rally up a point so obscure to that main thrust it’s laughable. Keeping track of positions requires a more than little faith ( suspension of disbelief).

      Perhaps we could extend that provision to refuse services to..well Fat white people..they caused their own heart problems, well smokers obviously, Tories..for sure meat eaters the lot of em, all prisoners. Hey I can see this working a profit yet.

      Stevie, as much as I enjoy a good belly laugh at your inane comments, on this post at least try and think things through before you post.

  16. avatar matahari says:

    “However, there are two things that are sacred: public healthcare and education. Bringing business models and profit motives into those two things is unethical right from the start”
    @timdog
    totally totally agree… please timdog, do you have any idea of where we can start to make this on track? cause its like chicken egg which comes first.

  17. avatar stevo says:

    Calm down Timdog……. I was just wondering :)

  18. avatar bonni says:

    I think universal human value is the “idea”, while universal healthcare is the “action”.

  19. avatar stevo says:

    Stevie, as much as I enjoy a good belly laugh at your inane comments, on this post at least try and think things through before you post.

    Oigal.I did not express any opinion at all in my post.

    Messers Oigal & Timdog went off ranting about denying health care and even went so far as to play the race card. Given that my expressed view was that I believe in state provided health care, for all, I can only assume that the views you are attacking are in fact… your own. They did not come from me, so that kinda narrows it down.

  20. avatar stevo says:

    Yeah, just pick out some extreme case, present this as common or standard practice to make another person’s position look extreme as well and deliberately ignore what happens day in day out with people on limited financial resources being helped with free medical care

    Lairedion, were did I present it as common or standard practise. What really inspired your little rant ? It can not have been me, for I said none of those things, and infact expressed a very different view. You may want to read my previous post.

    You really are a great example of how intolerant and hysterical lefties are. All of this is self fueled, from issues inside your head.

    Take the time to read my expressed view. You will see I believe in State funded health care for all. On what point (restricting yourself to things I actually said) do you differ?

    I will assume you will avoid that question, just as Oigal did.

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